Rose, I agree, and I feel the need for vengeance too. The problem is, these are ordinary men that we interact with everyday. If we shot all the rapists there would be a lot of dead men. I would like to focus on advocacy for full personhood for women - we should have rights over our own bodies like men do. I have a son who is 12. I teach him my values, and right from wrong, but I would be crazy to believe that his friends won't become increasingly influential in determining his feelings and decisions. How can we put a stop to "rape culture" where it's normal and acceptable for men to talk about women as fuckable or not, to rate us with numbers, to take away our reproductive freedom and healthcare. If we are not seen a whole people, with the same rights and protections as men, then it's easy for them to treat us as less and think that's just the way it is. If that's just normal male behavior, and man can be a rapist.
Sadly, far worse does happen to women. Remember the Yazidi women who were captured and sold repeatedly as sex slaves and the world barely responded? Young women are brutalized and murdered in theocracies and the world doesn’t respond. (More about this below.)
Examples must be made. None of these beasts can claim ignorance about consent. In my mind, the husband committed such an egregious crime that only one punishment is acceptable. The others should never live another free day in their lives.
Anyone who can do something like this is a beast, not a husband. And yet, anyone with an internet connection can watch things such as this and worse as entertainment because someone “consents.” Some “consensual” behavior crosses a line and normalizes the behavior. I don’t understand the logic of how we can have it both ways, as criminal behavior and as consensual entertainment.
My heart goes out to this woman and her children. How can any of them ever trust any man again? How can this woman cope with knowing what happened to her and the STDs she suffers from? I can’t imagine how she will deal with the knowledge of such an unspeakable betrayal.
I have a second cousin who was battered by her husband for years. (I heard about this when I was a small child.) The neighbors knew about it. The police knew about it. Finally, when she could bear it no more, she waited for him to come home from work while she sat in a chair in front of the entry door while holding his hunting rifle. When he walked through the door, she shot him dead. There were no charges against her and the police barely even questioned her. They knew her actions were justified and I suspect they felt shame at their own inaction.
At least she felt a sense of closure and of not being a helpless victim in dealing with a situation no one else would help her with. The woman who was gang raped will not have that sense of closure.
I also must remind people about the fate of women in northern Iraq when ISIS captured and sold them repeatedly as sex slaves, an allowable act in certain faith communities. When no one came to their assistance, Yazidi women received training and arms to kill the bastards and made sure their prey knew women were killing them. In that faith community, a man killed in combat by a woman will not enter paradise, which added extra poignancy to their deaths.
To all my oppressed sisters around the world, I pray that you find strength, solidarity, and help from those of us who are your allies to bring down the wrath and fury your oppressors deserve. Make them pay. You are strong enough.
This bears repeating: I think we have to remember that it wasn't until 1993 that martial "sexual assault" was criminalized in all 50 states. Even then, it was prosecuted as a lesser offense than the rape of a non spouse/partner. There were all kinds of clarifying laws and articles which made spousal rape less punishable. Those are just the laws, which says nothing of the actual prosecution, conviction and sentencing of husbands who raped their wives. Rape culture is the belief, which many still cling to, (especially within organized religion), that sex is part of the marital contract. It's something that wives owe their husbands. It's very hard to change people's attitudes, especially if teaching the definition of consent is banned from school curriculums.
There’s even more, I think. Why are the names of Jeffrey Epstein’s clients not released? What is the rationale? We don’t want to sully the reputations of IMPORTANT MEN? Only one perp has even been named, a British prince, and that was because a brave, determined young woman had the receipts, in the form of photos.
I heard today that one presidential candidate vowed to release the list. That’s significant. Those on the list must be shamed and prosecuted.
But at the same time, universities need to get out of the sex trial business. Sex allegations must be handled by the courts. Too often, reputations are ruined because of flaky academic proceedings. If there’s a claim, and there’s evidence, let the justice system handle it.
Also, a friend I’ve known for forty plus years received a call from a counselor who told her that her daughter was in the counselor’s office and my friend should come asap. She arrives and discovers her daughter was abused for more than ten years by her dad, who told her if she said anything, he would kill himself. The daughter is married with two children and trying to make her deeply messed up life work. How do you fix something like that?
So our friend went home and waited for the bastard to show up. As soon as he walked into the house and saw her face, he knew he was busted and volunteered that he should leave. She told home to leave now.
And that was the end of it. A no-contest divorce, she got all the assets and she never saw him again. I wanted to see him arrested, tried, and imprisoned just like anyone else convicted of molesting a child for so many years (and always with the suspicion that there might be other kids who were abused by him), but our friend decided she wanted to get it behind her, so the baby raper is completely free and paid no price for his crimes.
As far as preaching a marital right for a man having sex on demand, I never heard that preached or even hinted at in the faith community I was part of. In fact, my experience is quite the opposite. I entered into marriage with the belief that sex was a mutually satisfying and joyful part of a marriage. Haha. That wasn’t my experience. I learned over the years to live a monastic lifestyle, which I didn’t choose to live, but I keep my vows regardless of the personal costs. Moreover, if I go out and rent love, I sin. If I find a mutually attracted partner and practice adultery, I sin. I’m locked into a situation where I have no choice except a lifetime of cold showers. I will always wonder what could have been, but I can never know. Love is complicated and it’s not always the woman who suffers in a marriage. It doesn’t go in only one direction.
I'm not as interested in vengeance against the rapists, especially when justice for women is few and far between. I'd rather put my energy into awareness and meaningful change because until we acknowledge the Western legacy of slavery (ownership of people) and the disintegration of women's rights over our own bodies, we can change nothing. Most of the comments, especially from men, are outraged and disgusted that this is seen as "normal" now. That's my point - it's ALWAYS been normal, legal, accepted, etc. for husbands to have sex with their wives whenever they want. It is only in our very recent history, within my lifetime, that "marital rape" even existed. The laws have changed, but people's attitudes have not. Rape culture is locker room talk, men rating women with numbers (she's a 10), the ex-president of the United States brazenly admitting he grabs women by the pussy and fetishizes his own daughter. Stop the outrage like this is coming out of left field and see how violence against women is interwoven into our capitalistic patriarchal culture. That's the only way end this awful cycle. Otherwise we're just chasing the next rapist, and the next, and the next.
Amy, slavery is a human legacy. It still exists in Mauritania, Sudan, and even Saudi Arabia. Women are chattel in most of North Africa, the Middle East, and Central Asia. The same in Iran, but no one condemns those misogynist cultures.
However, the British Navy spent vast quantities of resources and lives to end the transatlantic slave trade. 600,000 lives were lost in this country to end slavery.
I know of no one who doesn’t acknowledge slavery and since Johnson’s Great Society, this country has spent trillions of dollars on programs to ameliorate the effects of slavery, without much success but not for lack of trying.
And I don’t want to sound obtuse, but which rights are women losing? I expect many would say abortion is the main one, but it always was and is now again a state issue, and abortions are still available and permanently so in many states.
In my marriage, my wife has every right I have. All our assets are jointly owned. It’s her choice whether to work or not. She is paid the same as any man in a position equivalent to hers. She can and does have a separate credit score and can take loans without my involvement. She and I vote for our individual preferences. We share household responsibilities, with mine being mostly the heavy projects, although I often help with household chores. I do the weekly shopping, maintain her car, etc& etc.
I believe crimes against individuals should be prosecuted, and some crimes more harshly than others. Human nature will never be perfected, but we should attempt to educate. If someone chooses not to follow norms and what’s left of a common ideal of morality, then society has a responsibility to protect itself from those individuals. If incarceration creates a better attitude in a felon upon release, then we’ve gained a citizen, but society’s first responsibility is to protect the innocent, and some individuals simply won’t rehabilitate. I don’t see incarceration or capital punishment as vengeance I see it as a society protecting itself from those who will harm others. We need carrots and we need sticks.
Speaking of losing control over one’s own body, for much of recorded history, men’s bodies were used as cannon fodder through drafts and other coerced service. Humanity has a pretty shitty history of respecting individual bodily autonomy. It was just a few months ago, I was given the choice of either allowing myself to be vaccinated or not boarding flights, not shopping in many stores, and as a condition for continued employment. My wife’s aunt, an active, healthy woman, dutifully got the jab, got the booster jab, and died two weeks later from Covid. There are all kinds of ways to lose control if one’s bodily autonomy.
P.s. I appreciate that you haven’t called me an a**hole, a *******, and a ************ for simply asking questions and trying to find common ground. I hope I’ve made it clear on how I feel about the abuse I witnessed against women over the years.
I employed a woman in a North African country as a micro finance project manager and she did her job well. A training opportunity for her came up in the Czech Republic. After she cleared immigration and customs in her home country and had boarded the plane, religious police arrived and deplaned here. Eventually we moved her to another country where she was able to work with dignity. I employed a young woman as a manager on a large scale micro credit program in a Central Asia country and I also scheduled her for an important training program outside the country. Her father, a well known heart surgeon in the Shiite country refused to let her go unless I would act as her honorary uncle. I agreed and when we arrived in a the country where the training took place, I told her that she was a free woman who could do as she pleased without my supervision or consent.
There is a lot of low hanging fruit, so to speak, when it comes to making women free.
In Educated, by Tara Westover, she discusses a. passage by John Stuart Mills, “ …there was a single line written by John Stuart Mill that, when I read it, moved the world: “It is a subject on which nothing final can be known.” The subject Mill had in mind was the nature of women. Mill claimed that women have been coaxed, cajoled, shoved and squashed into a series of feminine contortions for so many centuries, that it is now quite impossible to define their natural abilities or aspirations.”
I dream of a world where my daughter achieve some of her natural abilities and aspirations.
I don’t think you are a jerk at all. I find this to be an interesting conversation. We’re on the same side, but we have different life experiences. I hope you didn’t think I was trying to be argumentative. As a woman, I just have a different perception of a much larger problem.
I read about this the other day and I have an old-fashioned solution: An eye for an eye for every one of them! Remind them they'll be drugged first so it won't matter 😡
I know Trevy, but I think we need to focus on what we can do to support the wife and changing a culture where this is normalized. We can't waste our energy on these men. These are just the ones they caught, there are dozens more in this case alone.
We can do both. And a through punishment that fits the crime would scare them into changing their behavior. There is no changing their minds. They will always fantasize about things like this. We cannot tolerate their acting on it.
Amy, thank you for sharing this. It’s the banality of evil that I find most sickening. “Ordinary men” with “ordinary” lives and occupations. With wives and children. Doing horrific things. I wish I could say it’s beyond comprehension but look at what goes on in this world.
When women in college get drunk at frat parties, and pass out, it's seen as HER fault if she is sexually assaulted. Even in cases that are prosecuted, and defendants found guilty, judges give light sentences because they don't want to derail a promising young man's life. Who cares about what his actions did to her life.
I know, I was unsure about sharing it because I didn’t want to upset anyone, but it’s an upsetting story. For me, the most shocking part is that in 10 years, and 100 men, not one had a crisis of conscience. The husband was caught by chance, no one informed the police about what was happening. The rapists are ordinary men. We need widespread education about consent, and that if a woman is unconscious, she cannot say yes. No consent = rape = jail.
Thank you so much for sharing this Amy. I’ve been aware of it all week. I’m half Belgian and all my French friends are horrified. What’s so disturbing to me is how often women are told « not all men. » Obviously no woman believes it’s all men, but this is an example of how pervasive and accepted the objectification and violence against women truly is. Fifty-one men are being held accountable, but there were more they were unable to identify. Her courage to allow this to be public to bring awareness is truly extraordinary.
Thank you Danielle for so eloquently putting it into words, "What’s so disturbing to me is how often women are told « not all men. » Obviously no woman believes it’s all men, but this is an example of how pervasive and accepted the objectification and violence against women truly is." It wasn't so long ago that husbands could not be accused of raping their wives - sex was part of the marriage contract, for the man to take whenever he wanted it.
Please take care of yourself first and foremost. You have been through a terrible trauma over a long period of time. There is no reason to subject yourself to more harm. You are a brave woman, not because you wanted to be, but because you had to be to survive.
There is no pressure on you at all, and I sincerely apologize if my post made you feel like you had to take action. I should have been more cognizant of causing further trauma to women who have already lived through so much.
It’s especially close to home because I think if I had stayed much longer, this (the drugging) would’ve been the next step. Maybe I’m being dramatic, but it isn’t far off from what actually happened, applying psychological pressure and taking down my inhibitions with alcohol to achieve a similar effect.
That’s really the point of me posting this story, not because it was so out of the ordinary horrific, but because all the people involved were so ordinary. The woman could have been any wife, mother and grandmother, and the men our fathers, grandfathers and uncles. I’m relieved it didn’t happen to you, but I have no doubt similar atrocities are occurring all over the US, and no one says a word.
Oh, it’s really OK. I’m kind of tired of the whole apologizing for triggers. I’ve lived through too much to be that sensitive. I take care of myself when I need to and we all need to learn how to resource and self-soothe. I think I posted what I did just because I wanted to say something instead of nothing. I’m tired of being quiet. I don’t think you need to apologize at all. But I appreciate your sensitivity and kindness. We are all tired of men who hurt women in such terrible ways. We want it to stop. And the only way to make it stop is to bring it into the light. I’m working on my own story. Writing a memoir that may be very triggering to other women. But that can’t be a reason to stop writing.
I’m not a religious person at all, but my immediate response upon reading this comment was “Amen!” I am not a trigger warning person either, as I rely on grown men and women to look out for themselves.
Also, I’m glad that notes introduced me to you today. It looks like your topics, especially the intersection of grief and sexuality, are very aligned with my own story. I will be following.
I’m not a religious person either. But I’ll give that a big amen and a hallelujah to boot. My trauma has made me tough as leather. I’ve got my own back and the backs of many other women who are escaping abuse. And I’m proud of that. There’s something to be said for developing a nice thick skin.
I read about this in Invisible Women, then I had a dream about it. A nightmare really, one I thought I processed from - yours truly hospital rape. Another huge aspect of horrific 'power over' women's bodies AS NORMAL by professional men who take an oath to first do no harm.
Why do we even need an oath if we are human and enter a healing profession — because history repeats itself and women have been enslaved forever at the mercy of sickness.
We need to NOT normalize!
My memoir, Edge of Grace, Fierce Awakenings to Love, will soon have its 10th anniversay. I was not strong enough to stand behind my own story, the first time around I wrote from the place of victim and self-blame—my fault and did a huge 'spiritual bypass.' Oh, the readers were inspired. Then a sharp reader read between the lines and saw the insanity and said, "that is so fucked up. I am so sorry that happened to you." He was a man. I cried for weeks, this one apology unlocked rage, which unlocked victim, which had me take down the first version and rewrite it from an empowered place. So much more healing has happened. And I know this is another movement for mothers. More stories that need to be told, exposed, warned about. In the past I was invited to podcasts, etc and said no, as I could not speak without knowing what i would say. I feel more ready.
I am unsure why I am telling you all of this, other than, I feel your strength and I cherish strong women voices, thank you for giving this awful story more exposure.
I just got this as an email:
"Half way through, wow. Nearly cried a few times. Don't know what to say! I have found it hard to stop reading, very captivating.
Reading how you nursed the twins is so beautiful! On my cranial sacral course, we have just done a module on birthing and I will recommend your book to my colleagues as we talked about birth traumas and unnecessary medical interventions. My awareness on this subject is growing! Your real life account is so scary! More people and women should be aware of it. Great book!" ~Lauren
Amy, I would be very happy to comp you an Ebook copy if you like?
Prajna, you are amazing. Truly, I mean that. I'm so glad you told me more of your story. I will buy your book, but I do appreciate the offer to have one comped. There's something about a three dimensional book with real pages that I love. You have worked so hard for many years, to heal yourself, to mother your girls. I've been a single parent for 3 years and sometimes I feel like I can't do it anymore. My son is 12, on the autism spectrum, but not medically fragile. Still, unless you parent a neurodivergent child, or one with diverse needs, people don't know how lonely it can be. Your grace and strength inspire me to hang in there and do the best I can.
Thank you for the gift link. I’ve been avoiding this story because it is so disturbing, but now I’ve read it. I don’t know where this woman gets her strength, but it is just that, her strength, that I’m choosing to takeaway from the story.
And, I’ll be watching for appropriate punishment. I’ve long known that France has a problem with intimate partner violence (just as we do here in the US) but in this case, it appears that justice will be had.
Thank you for reading Ruth, I know this is a horrific story. I'm like you, and decided to focus on the wife's bravery and heroism rather than the depravity of what otherwise sound like "ordinary" men.
The ordinariness of the men… it’s exactly what Hannah Arendt meant when she wrote of the “banality of evil”. In that case, the context was the Nazis and also their collaborators.
Before the 1990s, there was no such thing as "marital rape" because a husband having sex with his wife whenever he wanted was his right. It wasn't until 1993 in the US and 1990 in France that laws were passed country wide criminalizing sexual assault by husbands against their wives. Even then, in the US, marital rape was charged as a lesser crime than rape by a stranger. In Minnesota, it wasn't until 2019 that marital/partner rape was charged as the same offense as stranger rape. The man in this case is in his 70s, so he grew up in a culture where husbands had the right to sexually assault their wives. It was not seen as a crime. Granted, the level of his depravity is not common, (hopefully) but I would guess that any man older than 50 grew up having zero concept that a husband could sexually assault his wife - he was owed sex whenever he wanted. When women are not granted full personhood, when our healthcare and reproductive rights have been stripped, it's easy for men to think of us as "less than." Men abusing women is common. We live in a culture that normalizes violence in general, and violence against women in particular. That's how it's common. It's woven into our culture.
Rape is 100% a hate crime and needs to be prosecuted as such. Those men should be shot like rabid dogs.
Rose, I agree, and I feel the need for vengeance too. The problem is, these are ordinary men that we interact with everyday. If we shot all the rapists there would be a lot of dead men. I would like to focus on advocacy for full personhood for women - we should have rights over our own bodies like men do. I have a son who is 12. I teach him my values, and right from wrong, but I would be crazy to believe that his friends won't become increasingly influential in determining his feelings and decisions. How can we put a stop to "rape culture" where it's normal and acceptable for men to talk about women as fuckable or not, to rate us with numbers, to take away our reproductive freedom and healthcare. If we are not seen a whole people, with the same rights and protections as men, then it's easy for them to treat us as less and think that's just the way it is. If that's just normal male behavior, and man can be a rapist.
I get it. But men only respond to violence....so be it. Advocating for goodness isn't saving any of us.
Sadly, far worse does happen to women. Remember the Yazidi women who were captured and sold repeatedly as sex slaves and the world barely responded? Young women are brutalized and murdered in theocracies and the world doesn’t respond. (More about this below.)
Examples must be made. None of these beasts can claim ignorance about consent. In my mind, the husband committed such an egregious crime that only one punishment is acceptable. The others should never live another free day in their lives.
Anyone who can do something like this is a beast, not a husband. And yet, anyone with an internet connection can watch things such as this and worse as entertainment because someone “consents.” Some “consensual” behavior crosses a line and normalizes the behavior. I don’t understand the logic of how we can have it both ways, as criminal behavior and as consensual entertainment.
My heart goes out to this woman and her children. How can any of them ever trust any man again? How can this woman cope with knowing what happened to her and the STDs she suffers from? I can’t imagine how she will deal with the knowledge of such an unspeakable betrayal.
I have a second cousin who was battered by her husband for years. (I heard about this when I was a small child.) The neighbors knew about it. The police knew about it. Finally, when she could bear it no more, she waited for him to come home from work while she sat in a chair in front of the entry door while holding his hunting rifle. When he walked through the door, she shot him dead. There were no charges against her and the police barely even questioned her. They knew her actions were justified and I suspect they felt shame at their own inaction.
At least she felt a sense of closure and of not being a helpless victim in dealing with a situation no one else would help her with. The woman who was gang raped will not have that sense of closure.
I also must remind people about the fate of women in northern Iraq when ISIS captured and sold them repeatedly as sex slaves, an allowable act in certain faith communities. When no one came to their assistance, Yazidi women received training and arms to kill the bastards and made sure their prey knew women were killing them. In that faith community, a man killed in combat by a woman will not enter paradise, which added extra poignancy to their deaths.
To all my oppressed sisters around the world, I pray that you find strength, solidarity, and help from those of us who are your allies to bring down the wrath and fury your oppressors deserve. Make them pay. You are strong enough.
This bears repeating: I think we have to remember that it wasn't until 1993 that martial "sexual assault" was criminalized in all 50 states. Even then, it was prosecuted as a lesser offense than the rape of a non spouse/partner. There were all kinds of clarifying laws and articles which made spousal rape less punishable. Those are just the laws, which says nothing of the actual prosecution, conviction and sentencing of husbands who raped their wives. Rape culture is the belief, which many still cling to, (especially within organized religion), that sex is part of the marital contract. It's something that wives owe their husbands. It's very hard to change people's attitudes, especially if teaching the definition of consent is banned from school curriculums.
There’s even more, I think. Why are the names of Jeffrey Epstein’s clients not released? What is the rationale? We don’t want to sully the reputations of IMPORTANT MEN? Only one perp has even been named, a British prince, and that was because a brave, determined young woman had the receipts, in the form of photos.
I heard today that one presidential candidate vowed to release the list. That’s significant. Those on the list must be shamed and prosecuted.
But at the same time, universities need to get out of the sex trial business. Sex allegations must be handled by the courts. Too often, reputations are ruined because of flaky academic proceedings. If there’s a claim, and there’s evidence, let the justice system handle it.
Also, a friend I’ve known for forty plus years received a call from a counselor who told her that her daughter was in the counselor’s office and my friend should come asap. She arrives and discovers her daughter was abused for more than ten years by her dad, who told her if she said anything, he would kill himself. The daughter is married with two children and trying to make her deeply messed up life work. How do you fix something like that?
So our friend went home and waited for the bastard to show up. As soon as he walked into the house and saw her face, he knew he was busted and volunteered that he should leave. She told home to leave now.
And that was the end of it. A no-contest divorce, she got all the assets and she never saw him again. I wanted to see him arrested, tried, and imprisoned just like anyone else convicted of molesting a child for so many years (and always with the suspicion that there might be other kids who were abused by him), but our friend decided she wanted to get it behind her, so the baby raper is completely free and paid no price for his crimes.
As far as preaching a marital right for a man having sex on demand, I never heard that preached or even hinted at in the faith community I was part of. In fact, my experience is quite the opposite. I entered into marriage with the belief that sex was a mutually satisfying and joyful part of a marriage. Haha. That wasn’t my experience. I learned over the years to live a monastic lifestyle, which I didn’t choose to live, but I keep my vows regardless of the personal costs. Moreover, if I go out and rent love, I sin. If I find a mutually attracted partner and practice adultery, I sin. I’m locked into a situation where I have no choice except a lifetime of cold showers. I will always wonder what could have been, but I can never know. Love is complicated and it’s not always the woman who suffers in a marriage. It doesn’t go in only one direction.
I'm not as interested in vengeance against the rapists, especially when justice for women is few and far between. I'd rather put my energy into awareness and meaningful change because until we acknowledge the Western legacy of slavery (ownership of people) and the disintegration of women's rights over our own bodies, we can change nothing. Most of the comments, especially from men, are outraged and disgusted that this is seen as "normal" now. That's my point - it's ALWAYS been normal, legal, accepted, etc. for husbands to have sex with their wives whenever they want. It is only in our very recent history, within my lifetime, that "marital rape" even existed. The laws have changed, but people's attitudes have not. Rape culture is locker room talk, men rating women with numbers (she's a 10), the ex-president of the United States brazenly admitting he grabs women by the pussy and fetishizes his own daughter. Stop the outrage like this is coming out of left field and see how violence against women is interwoven into our capitalistic patriarchal culture. That's the only way end this awful cycle. Otherwise we're just chasing the next rapist, and the next, and the next.
Amy, slavery is a human legacy. It still exists in Mauritania, Sudan, and even Saudi Arabia. Women are chattel in most of North Africa, the Middle East, and Central Asia. The same in Iran, but no one condemns those misogynist cultures.
However, the British Navy spent vast quantities of resources and lives to end the transatlantic slave trade. 600,000 lives were lost in this country to end slavery.
I know of no one who doesn’t acknowledge slavery and since Johnson’s Great Society, this country has spent trillions of dollars on programs to ameliorate the effects of slavery, without much success but not for lack of trying.
And I don’t want to sound obtuse, but which rights are women losing? I expect many would say abortion is the main one, but it always was and is now again a state issue, and abortions are still available and permanently so in many states.
In my marriage, my wife has every right I have. All our assets are jointly owned. It’s her choice whether to work or not. She is paid the same as any man in a position equivalent to hers. She can and does have a separate credit score and can take loans without my involvement. She and I vote for our individual preferences. We share household responsibilities, with mine being mostly the heavy projects, although I often help with household chores. I do the weekly shopping, maintain her car, etc& etc.
I believe crimes against individuals should be prosecuted, and some crimes more harshly than others. Human nature will never be perfected, but we should attempt to educate. If someone chooses not to follow norms and what’s left of a common ideal of morality, then society has a responsibility to protect itself from those individuals. If incarceration creates a better attitude in a felon upon release, then we’ve gained a citizen, but society’s first responsibility is to protect the innocent, and some individuals simply won’t rehabilitate. I don’t see incarceration or capital punishment as vengeance I see it as a society protecting itself from those who will harm others. We need carrots and we need sticks.
Speaking of losing control over one’s own body, for much of recorded history, men’s bodies were used as cannon fodder through drafts and other coerced service. Humanity has a pretty shitty history of respecting individual bodily autonomy. It was just a few months ago, I was given the choice of either allowing myself to be vaccinated or not boarding flights, not shopping in many stores, and as a condition for continued employment. My wife’s aunt, an active, healthy woman, dutifully got the jab, got the booster jab, and died two weeks later from Covid. There are all kinds of ways to lose control if one’s bodily autonomy.
P.s. I appreciate that you haven’t called me an a**hole, a *******, and a ************ for simply asking questions and trying to find common ground. I hope I’ve made it clear on how I feel about the abuse I witnessed against women over the years.
I employed a woman in a North African country as a micro finance project manager and she did her job well. A training opportunity for her came up in the Czech Republic. After she cleared immigration and customs in her home country and had boarded the plane, religious police arrived and deplaned here. Eventually we moved her to another country where she was able to work with dignity. I employed a young woman as a manager on a large scale micro credit program in a Central Asia country and I also scheduled her for an important training program outside the country. Her father, a well known heart surgeon in the Shiite country refused to let her go unless I would act as her honorary uncle. I agreed and when we arrived in a the country where the training took place, I told her that she was a free woman who could do as she pleased without my supervision or consent.
There is a lot of low hanging fruit, so to speak, when it comes to making women free.
In Educated, by Tara Westover, she discusses a. passage by John Stuart Mills, “ …there was a single line written by John Stuart Mill that, when I read it, moved the world: “It is a subject on which nothing final can be known.” The subject Mill had in mind was the nature of women. Mill claimed that women have been coaxed, cajoled, shoved and squashed into a series of feminine contortions for so many centuries, that it is now quite impossible to define their natural abilities or aspirations.”
I dream of a world where my daughter achieve some of her natural abilities and aspirations.
I don’t think you are a jerk at all. I find this to be an interesting conversation. We’re on the same side, but we have different life experiences. I hope you didn’t think I was trying to be argumentative. As a woman, I just have a different perception of a much larger problem.
It's good to bring this to people's attention who did not see the article. It's horrific.
Thank you David. I really felt I had to honor the wife’s bravery in allowing an open trial.
I read about this the other day and I have an old-fashioned solution: An eye for an eye for every one of them! Remind them they'll be drugged first so it won't matter 😡
I know Trevy, but I think we need to focus on what we can do to support the wife and changing a culture where this is normalized. We can't waste our energy on these men. These are just the ones they caught, there are dozens more in this case alone.
We can do both. And a through punishment that fits the crime would scare them into changing their behavior. There is no changing their minds. They will always fantasize about things like this. We cannot tolerate their acting on it.
I’m sickened and horrified. I cannot fathom learning something like this. The courage she has is astounding 🖤
I know, it's grotesque, but we cannot change what we don't acknowledge. Yes, she is an amazing woman to share her story this way.
Agreed!
Amy, thank you for sharing this. It’s the banality of evil that I find most sickening. “Ordinary men” with “ordinary” lives and occupations. With wives and children. Doing horrific things. I wish I could say it’s beyond comprehension but look at what goes on in this world.
When women in college get drunk at frat parties, and pass out, it's seen as HER fault if she is sexually assaulted. Even in cases that are prosecuted, and defendants found guilty, judges give light sentences because they don't want to derail a promising young man's life. Who cares about what his actions did to her life.
It’s sickening. And normalized. Just the fact that they needed to add another glass cage because the courtroom was overcrowded with defendants.
This is horrifying. I am going to need some time to actually process. Like it’s not a read and scroll on to other things day.
Thank you for sharing it. Really. As much as one’s instinct might be to dig our head in the sand, it must be shouted far and wide.
Keeping demonic acts like this in the dark is how they are allowed to breed.
I know, I was unsure about sharing it because I didn’t want to upset anyone, but it’s an upsetting story. For me, the most shocking part is that in 10 years, and 100 men, not one had a crisis of conscience. The husband was caught by chance, no one informed the police about what was happening. The rapists are ordinary men. We need widespread education about consent, and that if a woman is unconscious, she cannot say yes. No consent = rape = jail.
Thank you so much for sharing this Amy. I’ve been aware of it all week. I’m half Belgian and all my French friends are horrified. What’s so disturbing to me is how often women are told « not all men. » Obviously no woman believes it’s all men, but this is an example of how pervasive and accepted the objectification and violence against women truly is. Fifty-one men are being held accountable, but there were more they were unable to identify. Her courage to allow this to be public to bring awareness is truly extraordinary.
Thank you Danielle for so eloquently putting it into words, "What’s so disturbing to me is how often women are told « not all men. » Obviously no woman believes it’s all men, but this is an example of how pervasive and accepted the objectification and violence against women truly is." It wasn't so long ago that husbands could not be accused of raping their wives - sex was part of the marriage contract, for the man to take whenever he wanted it.
It’s absolutely horrific and this woman is so brave.
She really is a superhero.
I’m not sure I want to read this. It was the moment when my ex-husband threatened to gang rape me that my brain finally broke and I left.
Please take care of yourself first and foremost. You have been through a terrible trauma over a long period of time. There is no reason to subject yourself to more harm. You are a brave woman, not because you wanted to be, but because you had to be to survive.
There is no pressure on you at all, and I sincerely apologize if my post made you feel like you had to take action. I should have been more cognizant of causing further trauma to women who have already lived through so much.
It’s especially close to home because I think if I had stayed much longer, this (the drugging) would’ve been the next step. Maybe I’m being dramatic, but it isn’t far off from what actually happened, applying psychological pressure and taking down my inhibitions with alcohol to achieve a similar effect.
That’s really the point of me posting this story, not because it was so out of the ordinary horrific, but because all the people involved were so ordinary. The woman could have been any wife, mother and grandmother, and the men our fathers, grandfathers and uncles. I’m relieved it didn’t happen to you, but I have no doubt similar atrocities are occurring all over the US, and no one says a word.
I can pretty much guarantee it.
Oh, it’s really OK. I’m kind of tired of the whole apologizing for triggers. I’ve lived through too much to be that sensitive. I take care of myself when I need to and we all need to learn how to resource and self-soothe. I think I posted what I did just because I wanted to say something instead of nothing. I’m tired of being quiet. I don’t think you need to apologize at all. But I appreciate your sensitivity and kindness. We are all tired of men who hurt women in such terrible ways. We want it to stop. And the only way to make it stop is to bring it into the light. I’m working on my own story. Writing a memoir that may be very triggering to other women. But that can’t be a reason to stop writing.
I’m not a religious person at all, but my immediate response upon reading this comment was “Amen!” I am not a trigger warning person either, as I rely on grown men and women to look out for themselves.
Also, I’m glad that notes introduced me to you today. It looks like your topics, especially the intersection of grief and sexuality, are very aligned with my own story. I will be following.
I’m not a religious person either. But I’ll give that a big amen and a hallelujah to boot. My trauma has made me tough as leather. I’ve got my own back and the backs of many other women who are escaping abuse. And I’m proud of that. There’s something to be said for developing a nice thick skin.
Dear Amy,
I read about this in Invisible Women, then I had a dream about it. A nightmare really, one I thought I processed from - yours truly hospital rape. Another huge aspect of horrific 'power over' women's bodies AS NORMAL by professional men who take an oath to first do no harm.
Why do we even need an oath if we are human and enter a healing profession — because history repeats itself and women have been enslaved forever at the mercy of sickness.
We need to NOT normalize!
My memoir, Edge of Grace, Fierce Awakenings to Love, will soon have its 10th anniversay. I was not strong enough to stand behind my own story, the first time around I wrote from the place of victim and self-blame—my fault and did a huge 'spiritual bypass.' Oh, the readers were inspired. Then a sharp reader read between the lines and saw the insanity and said, "that is so fucked up. I am so sorry that happened to you." He was a man. I cried for weeks, this one apology unlocked rage, which unlocked victim, which had me take down the first version and rewrite it from an empowered place. So much more healing has happened. And I know this is another movement for mothers. More stories that need to be told, exposed, warned about. In the past I was invited to podcasts, etc and said no, as I could not speak without knowing what i would say. I feel more ready.
I am unsure why I am telling you all of this, other than, I feel your strength and I cherish strong women voices, thank you for giving this awful story more exposure.
I just got this as an email:
"Half way through, wow. Nearly cried a few times. Don't know what to say! I have found it hard to stop reading, very captivating.
Reading how you nursed the twins is so beautiful! On my cranial sacral course, we have just done a module on birthing and I will recommend your book to my colleagues as we talked about birth traumas and unnecessary medical interventions. My awareness on this subject is growing! Your real life account is so scary! More people and women should be aware of it. Great book!" ~Lauren
Amy, I would be very happy to comp you an Ebook copy if you like?
Thank you!
Prajna, you are amazing. Truly, I mean that. I'm so glad you told me more of your story. I will buy your book, but I do appreciate the offer to have one comped. There's something about a three dimensional book with real pages that I love. You have worked so hard for many years, to heal yourself, to mother your girls. I've been a single parent for 3 years and sometimes I feel like I can't do it anymore. My son is 12, on the autism spectrum, but not medically fragile. Still, unless you parent a neurodivergent child, or one with diverse needs, people don't know how lonely it can be. Your grace and strength inspire me to hang in there and do the best I can.
Dear Amy, Thank you so much. We inspire each other, we need each other, we are stronger this way.
I love that you want to read the three dimensional book — my preference as well.
I can't wait to hear how it lands for you.
Deep appreciation.
In sisterhood.
P
Yes, to insure we create beneficial dialogue I’ve created a series on this via Women Are Revolutionary Leaders. You might appreciate participating. https://breakthroughbusinessstrategies.substack.com/p/our-answer-to-not-all-men-is-its
I will read your post more carefully tomorrow. It looks great from what I’ve read so far.
Thank you for the gift link. I’ve been avoiding this story because it is so disturbing, but now I’ve read it. I don’t know where this woman gets her strength, but it is just that, her strength, that I’m choosing to takeaway from the story.
And, I’ll be watching for appropriate punishment. I’ve long known that France has a problem with intimate partner violence (just as we do here in the US) but in this case, it appears that justice will be had.
Thank you for reading Ruth, I know this is a horrific story. I'm like you, and decided to focus on the wife's bravery and heroism rather than the depravity of what otherwise sound like "ordinary" men.
The ordinariness of the men… it’s exactly what Hannah Arendt meant when she wrote of the “banality of evil”. In that case, the context was the Nazis and also their collaborators.
This isawful. No is no Amy.
Well, it's hard for a woman to say no when she's been drugged by her husband and is unconscious.
Thank you for sharing this 💜
You're welcome. I wish this story didn't exist at all, but since it does, it needs more awareness.
This is absolutely horrific.
It really is horrific, in part because it's actually not that uncommon (although on a smaller scale).
That is awful. How can this be common?
Before the 1990s, there was no such thing as "marital rape" because a husband having sex with his wife whenever he wanted was his right. It wasn't until 1993 in the US and 1990 in France that laws were passed country wide criminalizing sexual assault by husbands against their wives. Even then, in the US, marital rape was charged as a lesser crime than rape by a stranger. In Minnesota, it wasn't until 2019 that marital/partner rape was charged as the same offense as stranger rape. The man in this case is in his 70s, so he grew up in a culture where husbands had the right to sexually assault their wives. It was not seen as a crime. Granted, the level of his depravity is not common, (hopefully) but I would guess that any man older than 50 grew up having zero concept that a husband could sexually assault his wife - he was owed sex whenever he wanted. When women are not granted full personhood, when our healthcare and reproductive rights have been stripped, it's easy for men to think of us as "less than." Men abusing women is common. We live in a culture that normalizes violence in general, and violence against women in particular. That's how it's common. It's woven into our culture.
And men be like: why do they chose bear over us?
Right?!